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HaraldBluetooth
New Member
Denmark
77 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Dec 2013 : 14:59:42
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Hi, I've used XMM for over 6 years now and have been a very happy user.
But now I have chosen to make the tough decision to leave EMM. I could have leaved without a comment, but decided to do it anyhow.
The reason is the way development XMM8 has gone. To say it short. While XMM7 was more management-oriented and user friendly, XMM8 is more about look. XMM7 was actually realy focused on flow, when you import and upgrade your movies from your harddisks.
When you as I do have more than 5.000 movies and 126.000 people, XMM8 is very sluggish to use, even with a quad processor and 4GB RAM. The strengths of XMM8 is the many data fields and the nice people overview, but at the same time these strengths are also XMM8's Achilles heel from a performance point of view, this also because of Microsoft Access Database maybe.
All this in my opinion of course.
XMM8 had been a killer movie manager if:
1. The quick edit view was expanded even further than XMM7 (I know you could customize the quick edit view in XMM7 and move the fields around as you pleased, and I also did this, but it would have been really nice, if the default quick edit view was expanded so ALL the fields were on one single page/screen, max. two and customizable. Look at the old ANT movie catalog f.ex. It gives a quick overview and very quick to change different fields instead of cycling through a lot of tabs, where you easily lose track of the information.
2. A fancy theater mode a la the StreamedMP skin for MediaPortal and XBMC. With SimpleCard you are on the way in XMM8, but compared to StreamedMP it's like pre-pre-alpha state. The same goes for the MyWebsite export.
3. Speed!Speed!Speed! - I think it's time to change the database engine. IMDB scraping also takes years to finish compared with alternative competition.
4. Scraping scripts are the heart in every movie manager and more focus for faster updates of the scripts, when something is changed at these sites, is alfa omega.
5. Full unicode support for all characters in all languages, also in scrips and export modules is also a mandatory feature here in 2013.
6. Don't advertise with features, that are broken or not implemented in XMM8 yet.
I will not slam with the door, because I've been a happy camper up until XMM8 and wish you all luck in the future and a big thanks goes to Alessio for his great commitment to this project and for all the fast and helpful answers here in this forum.
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Edited by - HaraldBluetooth on 01 Dec 2013 15:38:20 |
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Alessio Viti
Forum Admin
Italy
9171 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2013 : 09:07:23
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Hello,
I am really sad to read this... the main reason is because I have work so hard on XMM 8 that I feel like I have lose my time.
As you can imagine for me was more easy to not change nothing and stay with XMM 7 instead of program XMM 8 from scratch.
So... I don't know what to do next. Go back to XMM 7? Continue with XMM 8? Really hard to decide. In my opinion XMM 8 is better in many things, but you are not the only one that write me that XMM 8 is bad so means that is not only *your* opinion.
Go back to XMM 7 its not easy right now. Of course I have all source code of the latest 7.2.3.6, so I can return to it... will it be the right choise?
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http://www.facebook.com/pages/eXtreme-Movie-Manager/47220214342?ref=mf
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Mawu
Senior Member
Germany
1025 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2013 : 13:09:18
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@HaraldBluetooth
And what is your alternative to xMM? I know them all and it's like going out of the frying pan into the fire.
@Alessio
I've criticized xMM8 very harsh in the past, but the answer is easy. There is no realistic way back to the old xMM7. There are too many essential new features (filters, custom treeview, data fields) and the old xMM7 is suffering from similar problems (speed, unicode, database engine). The program also needs some continuity. There were too many fundamental changes the last years (One of the results of this might be that there is no good documentaion available).
But you should:
1. try to re-engineer the whole program and re-integrate all the features that are missing from xMM7. There are tons of suggestions in the forum.
2. more systematic step-by-step-development. Therefore you shouldn't work at too many things at the same time. Every element or feature has to work rock solid. At the moment many things are implemented a little bit halfhearted. New features or bug fixes seem to happen accidentally and not planned. For me there is no single reason why I don't like xMM8 - there are many little things that don't work as they should (e.g. try to reproduce my workflow to add a new dvd/blu-ray with all info to xMM - it simply doesn't work for me).
3. More integration of the community (the beta testers weren't happy about the early xMM8 release): bugtracker; where are the plugin/script programmers and where are the plugins from xMM7 gone?
4. When you have no time, you have no time. You should clearly communicate when you have some time for development and suggestions. Everybody will understand this and nobody is frustrated when there is no help or answer for some time.
5. see my other threads
Bye byte and Happy Coding
Mawu |
www.schlemmerkino.de - Die Nr.1 für filmische Leckereien |
Edited by - Mawu on 02 Dec 2013 13:21:33 |
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apd
Junior Member
Greece
378 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2013 : 14:19:36
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I agree with Mawu on both counts. AFAIK, there's no serious alternative to v.7 - although it now feels outdated and deserted.
I do like the looks of XMM8 but it is still unusable for me. Editing is cumbersome; I hate the inflexibility of Quick Edit; and the major drawbacks of v7, like lack of Unicode or the flexibility of exporting the grid have not been addressed.
Most of all, XMM8.1.1 is SLOW: If I press Add Director in the Add/Edit window, it takes more than 12 seconds to just open the field. Or try opening Settings from the Device Manager and just press OK - it takes 10 seconds (!!) to just close this window (updating the Treeview in the background).
But I think the most important is the fact that although users provided a lot of feedback for a very long while, we are left with a feeling that all of our beta testing is disregarded.
So, should you go back to 7? IMHO, No. But you should put some serious effort in implementing the loads of suggestions that exist in the forum.
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HaraldBluetooth
New Member
Denmark
77 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2013 : 14:29:40
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@Mawu - yes right now I'm jobbing with 3 moviedatabases, both XMM7 + XMM8 and MediaPortal with MyFilms plugin for showing on my HDTV with the StreamedMP skin. I can't only use XMM8, because I can't get the data from XMM8 database to the ANT movie catalog file, that MyFilms is using. The IMDBscraping in MyFilms via AMCupdater is great to use and is lightning fast compared to XMM8. The advantage by using XML database is, that I can use the snappy and fast ANT Movie Catalog program as a quick edit window with all databasefields in one spot. Great overview. Actually I don't miss anything in that process, but I also have all my 5.000 movies on my harddisks.
@Alessio
I fully agree, what Mawu says, my focus for XMM8 would be on the following:
1. Bug fixing and introducing of a bugtracker
2. Script fixing
3. Rework of the Quick Edit Window and re-integrate XXM7 features.
Then we were able to easily live with this 1 to 2 years and the next focus for XXM9 could be a new database engine and maybe a slick theater mode.
Right now my XMM8 uses 1.2GB RAM idle with 7 fields in the Grid + Tree View + Movie Big Cover and Quick Edit Window as tabs. Shown actors are without photos. My XMM movie access database is 870MB compared to MyFilms plugin ANT XML database at 20MB with the same movies. I know, that there isn't so many fields in the MyFilms database, but anyhow a big difference. |
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Alessio Viti
Forum Admin
Italy
9171 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2013 : 14:56:18
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Thank you guys, I have got the point.
I am trying to optimize the code behind XMM, I have some free time from now to end of year so I hope to do a good job.
Please continue to report bugs and suggestions. If you can rearrange it maybe in a unique post, for me will be more easy to read instead of surf in the forum 
Really thank you for all your patience!
Ale |
http://www.facebook.com/pages/eXtreme-Movie-Manager/47220214342?ref=mf
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Alessio Viti
Forum Admin
Italy
9171 Posts |
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HaraldBluetooth
New Member
Denmark
77 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2013 : 15:32:39
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| @Alessio - Yeah that was also the reason, why I in my first post wrote "The strengths of XMM8 is the many data fields and the nice people overview, but at the same time these strengths are also XMM8's Achilles heel from a performance point of view". |
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Alessio Viti
Forum Admin
Italy
9171 Posts |
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HaraldBluetooth
New Member
Denmark
77 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2013 : 17:42:46
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Of course Alessio, where do I upload it to? Is it only the mdb file or also the covers, photos...?
Okay the mdb file have I uploaded here (link removed) - I hope you can get access to it.
The database is initial upgraded from XMM7 to XMM8 including actors and other persons |
Edited by - HaraldBluetooth on 09 Jan 2014 18:54:42 |
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apd
Junior Member
Greece
378 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2013 : 18:35:37
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FYI, and since you did not ask :) I'll just say that the timings I mentioned are relevant to a db (imported from v7) with ~6.000 titles, total size 106 mb in v8, (it contains ~47.000 persons, but I don't dld people info, so these are just empty "cards"). The Directors list that takes so long to open contains ~2750 names.
The PC is an Intel i5 2.500 with 16GB RAM running W7-64. And v7 is not lightning quick, but it's reasonably fast.
Needless to say that when I create a new db and add ~100 films, all windows work fast enough - so it's obvious that it's the bulk that creates the problem. |
Edited by - apd on 02 Dec 2013 18:44:38 |
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yan00s
Moderator
405 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2013 : 18:49:11
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Two cents to emphasize what's already been said:
- Leaving v8 now would be the bigger disaster. 8 is a leap forward. Just not the giant one we were hoping for. It has a lot of promise and potential...
- A systematic approach (I probably would have said "structured" 'cause it's buzzier) should be the way to tackle the more problematic stuff like unicode (especially for the internal fields api), db integration (or better abstraction) and db feature usage (referential integrity, queries) and not to forget proper documentation. BTW the latter won't get much community support as long as nobody knows where things are going ...
PS: Scraping will always be special and except for sites which expressly support it a hit and run thing - if we talk unicode correctly, 'fcourse.  |
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yan00s
Moderator
405 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2013 : 19:08:37
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quote:
Originally posted by apd
FYI, and since you did not ask :) I'll just say that the timings I mentioned are relevant to a db (imported from v7) with ~6.000 titles, total size 106 mb in v8, (it contains ~47.000 persons, but I don't dld people info, so these are just empty "cards"). The Directors list that takes so long to open contains ~2750 names.
The "add artist" feature is awful. I've complained about it a number of times too.
Since just loading the records - and it always loads all artist names and ids - seems to be a problem I'm pretty sure something's wrong(ly implemented) there ... if it's really a problem of the DevExpress ComboBoxEdit stuff which most likely gets used here then it needs to be done by custom code. |
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apd
Junior Member
Greece
378 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2013 : 19:50:23
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quote:
Originally posted by yan00s
PS: Scraping will always be special and except for sites which expressly support it a hit and run thing - if we talk unicode correctly, 'fcourse.
Scraping is the #1 reason to use XMM - this is the best feature XMM ever had over its rivals. But after IMDB's recent changes, the IMDB scripts do not work as well as they used to, and this cripples XMM's functionality. Proxying helps to beat localised titles, but but it's a drag to go proxy hunting every now and then just to get the direct links. Unfortunately, this problem exists also for v7. So if a new user wanted to create a modest db of, say, ~1000 titles, the procedure would be hugely unrewarding. |
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Mawu
Senior Member
Germany
1025 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2013 : 19:50:44
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quote:
Please continue to report bugs and suggestions. If you can rearrange it maybe in a unique post, for me will be more easy to read instead of surf in the forum
Maybe we should first structure this a little bit with a short roadmap of the main topics that have to be improved.
For example:
- database design
- database usage (query, filter, add, edit, delete items)
- magic script & script import
- device scanner & file managment, dvd & blu-ray support
- import collection from other sources, import from xMM7
- collection maintenance & database functions
- cover management
- export features
- printing & report features
- plugins & external devices
- statistic features
- moviecards
There should be a step-by-step discussion of this sub-topics. Otherwise we talk at cross purposes.
And I would like to begin with the database design.
Concerning IMDB: what about a feature that enables access to IMDb locally by holding copies of the data directly (http://www.imdb.com/interfaces)? |
www.schlemmerkino.de - Die Nr.1 für filmische Leckereien |
Edited by - Mawu on 02 Dec 2013 19:57:47 |
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Alessio Viti
Forum Admin
Italy
9171 Posts |
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yan00s
Moderator
405 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2013 : 20:49:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Mawu
quote:
Please continue to report bugs and suggestions. If you can rearrange it maybe in a unique post, for me will be more easy to read instead of surf in the forum
Maybe we should first structure this a little bit with a short roadmap of the main topics that have to be improved.
For example:
- database design
- database usage (query, filter, add, edit, delete items)
- magic script & script import
- device scanner & file managment, dvd & blu-ray support
- import collection from other sources, import from xMM7
- collection maintenance & database functions
- cover management
- export features
- printing & report features
- plugins & external devices
- statistic features
- moviecards
There should be a step-by-step discussion of this sub-topics. Otherwise we talk at cross purposes.
And I would like to begin with the database design.
Good point(s). 
Ale, maybe a dev subforum with some dedicated threads?
quote:
Originally posted by Mawu
Concerning IMDB: what about a feature that enables access to IMDb locally by holding copies of the data directly (http://www.imdb.com/interfaces)?
It requires some work to get views / search results. Unluckily the data does not contain those tt / nm ids which is really a pity (I didn't find'em).
And: a full copy of the data takes ca. 12 GB in a postgres db filled by IMDBpy (10 times the raw data). No delta updates the IMDBpy way though. 12 GB also means: no MS Access. 
I think there's another import for the list data supported, rdf data or something like that but it would be even trickier to come by from inside XMM. |
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Alessio Viti
Forum Admin
Italy
9171 Posts |
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apd
Junior Member
Greece
378 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2013 : 11:45:59
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The last two updates were a real boost! Some comments:
Release 8.1.3.0 (3 December 2013)
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->Improved the Close of Settings Window (Do not reload the Treeview if not need)
Confirmed! Great!
->Improved the Speed of Saving a Movie
Confirmed. But now when I mass delete a bunch of movies, I get the "Saving db" message after each deletion and it seems slow (maybe I just hadn't noticed before? )
->Now when you add a Movie the Focus goes in the Title Directly
Yes, but only on MANUAL Add. Not if you Add by "Scan Disk".
->Improved the speed when you add a new Director/People to a Movie because the list is Load Just the First Time
Confirmed! Excellent! (Could this list be used with Editable Grid? It would make editing even faster)
Release 8.1.2.0 (2 December 2013)
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->The ScriptEngine Icon is now visible only when then Engine is Running
Confirmed! Perhaps it would be better if, by default, the ScriptEngine window closes when it completes. Or at least offer it as an option. Anyone has an opinion on that?
->Improved a little bit the Loading of MovieCard
Maybe. The Default.htm is still a little laggy, but the Simple Card.htm is quite fast. If a user wants more bells and whistles, they should accept the lag, so no need to dwell upon this any more.
->Added an Blink Icon that show if the Movie/Tv Show Should be Imported from Internet
It only works if the Default.Html is enabled. Personally I find it distracting - it's obvious in the Grid if a film needs updating. But I don't use the Default.Html, so no problem.
->Added a Button in the HTML Card to Update the Movie
Helpful. But it only works if the Default.Html is enabled.
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Alessio Viti
Forum Admin
Italy
9171 Posts |
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Mawu
Senior Member
Germany
1025 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2013 : 13:35:57
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Suggestions "Database Design":
- "Decluttering" of the database, most of all improvement of referential integrity of the database:
You see some deficiencies for example in the actors database, that is populated with actors not related to a movie (because the movies are deleted before)
yan00s has made some clever suggestions:
http://www.binaryworks.it/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10810
http://www.binaryworks.it/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11512
- improved collection maintenance tools to clean such cluttered databases (e.g. JDommis plugin from xMM7 to clean the actors database)
- items in the lists (like genre, country,..) are more or less crap. This lists should be empty for a new database and then populated (or deleted) according to the imported data
- data field doublettes: media language exists as data field doublette in the edit window although I can't edit data (and can't find the data field in access database; where is it?). Also existing as doublettes: media label, number of media. Bot fields are also in the discs tab:
- DVD features field only contain checkboxes (which is ok), but it's not possible to import the old features field correctly in the new features list(all stuff is "pressed" into the first item in the features table) although it's correctly listed in the access database. I would suggest to have an "extras" field in the DVD/VHS tab (like for the boxsets in xMM7) where all the stuff from the corresponding field in xMM7 can be imported. For me the features field realized in xMM8 until now are more "feature keywords" with all the standard features provided by the dvd/blu-ray (like trailer, scene access etc.). With this list you are able now to filter in the treeview, e.g. to list all movies with director commentary. The list is not so good for extended information. For example: in the features list you have a checkbox "easter eggs". This can now easily be filtered in the treeview. In the extras field you'll now have the possibility to store detailed information about the easter eggs like how to activate them. Imho these two data fields would complement each other.
- "gift" checkbox (from movie features tab) should be placed where it belongs to (purchase details, purchase price should be greyed out when "gift" checkbox is selected)
- currency(€, $ etc.) for price fields
- seen date should be a multiple field as I like to watch my favourite movies more than one time. In future there should be a counter in statistic to show the movies I watched most.
- For naming the custom fields I have the problem that german umlaute are not accepted
- autonomous custom fields for episodes, possibility to define field name
- flag for TV Shows that indicates the status of the show: finished, deposed and as standard continues
- TV series: All my series I've bought as season's boxsets. For TV-series generally seasons boxets or 1/2 seasons boxsets were distributed. In xMM 7&8 it's not possible to assign episodes and/or seasons to a boxset or vice versa boxset(s) to a tv show. xMM should be able to map this.
- possibility to handle boxsets not as a movie but as a "container" for movies, which means own BoxID or no ID at all but sorted together with the associated movies. How this can look like in a grid you can see here:
(I think it's worth to take a look at DVD Profiler's concept of mother/daughter profiles)
- multiple professions for artists
Bye byte & Happy Coding
Mawu |
www.schlemmerkino.de - Die Nr.1 für filmische Leckereien |
Edited by - Mawu on 04 Dec 2013 11:19:26 |
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XMM 8 development and future